Now I like Christians, most of them (really I do) but if there was ever a group of people for whom I have such as passionate dislike, it has to be the 'Me and my Bible, Fundamentalist, Evangelical, Christian Right'... It's not so much what they stand for (well it is, and I will come on to that in a few seconds) But rather the manner in which they choose to 'spread the message’.
When I read my new testament I read about kindness, forgiveness, tolerance, respect, love and understanding… not words one would often associate with those who hand out condemnation like its theirs to give.
For me the greatest problem with the religious right is their selective use and very selective application of the ‘sinner’ – Gays and lesbians for instance, they live in sin, their sin is so distasteful the Christian right preach day after day after day about how this is ‘an abomination’ (Leviticus 18:22) - no problems there, its in the bible… what then is your problem Ciarnán??? My problem is that the bible say a lot more about sin… A LOT more:
For instance when I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?
I would like to sell my (imaginary) daughter into slavery, as is sanctioned by Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to the Welsh but not the Scots. Can you clarify, why can’t I own Scottish people?
I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear prescription glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
So maybe before these short sighted hypo-Christians start condemning homosexuals to death and damnation they can answer these queries –or maybe they will do what the always have done (and will no doubt continue to do) and remain blissfully ignorant of the sin they themselves are committing ‘let he who is without sin cast the first stone’ (john 8:7)
…although I suspect that won’t happen, as the glass houses in which these people live will quickly come smashing down around them.
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13 comments:
Ciarnan...
(excuse the lack of a fada, I have an American laptop which won't let me write one... Doesn't even let me write a Pound sign or Euro sign! Bloody Americans and their xenophobia...)
You do talk some s**t.
Still love you though.
(what would the Christians think of that!?)
Your gunna go to hell helferty!!!
The CJP (christian judgement panel), as i like to call them are gunna crucify you when they read this............................................................................. i completely agree with you though! Fundamentalists! Who think they're spreading the word of god when really they're turning people away from it!
You filthy sodomite lover may God strike fire down upon you.
May you eat excrement all the days of your life. Damnation on you o sinful one.
Answer me vermon.
Why won't you answer me you communist excrement?
Ciarnan, a few flaws here,
“When I read my new testament I read about kindness, forgiveness, tolerance, respect, love and understanding” … then why do you back up all of your arguments with the OT?
I think if you’re going to call an article ‘The Christian Right’ you should start by putting your text in context, and by actually understanding what it is to be a Christian.
Anyone who has spent enough time studying their Bible will tell you that the Levitical Laws found in the Old Testament no longer apply to today. Christians believe that the Levitical Laws were given to Israel as a way for a sinful nation to approach a holy God. The New Testament actually makes the Levitical Laws ‘Null and Void’ as it were, because the Messiah was the ultimate sacrifice. Humans no longer have to make sacrifices for their sins, because Jesus actually was God’s own sacrifice and satisfies his wrath. That’s why so many times in the Bible Jesus is called the Lamb of God. So actually, your references to other sins are all wrong; because we’re Christians, not Jews; our faith is based on the New Testament, making those laws no longer relative. Maybe your article should be called ‘Me on the Jewish Right’?
To the point on the selectivity of the word sinner: Yes, there are a lot of people who use Christianity in the wrong way, to back up arguments that are not in any way relative. I once heard a guy say that you can support just about any whimsical statement with a quote from the Bible. People twist it and distort it to fit their own views.
Any true Christian knows that every single human being is a sinner. We all do things that are wrong, Christian or not. That’s one of the very fundamental things about the Bible. Christianity simply means that somebody acknowledges they’re wrong a lot of the time, and they count on Jesus as having paid for their sins in the ultimate sacrifice. Nowhere, nowhere, nowhere, does it say that Christians are perfect, and Christians are no longer sinners.
In Jesus’ time, there was a group of religious guys called the Pharisees. Now, the Pharisees were these men who knew the Levitical Laws off by heart. They used them to condemn others, rather than to show others the Grace of God. They punished people for doing things like shaving on a Sabbath, because they counted that as ‘work’; that’s how closely they followed these laws. They basically thought they were the people closest to God, and everyone looked up to them.
What did Jesus say about these guys? Matthew 23 says about them,
“They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger”,
“Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted”,
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin (all very expensive), and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness.”
If you know your Bible, you’ll see that Christianity has nothing to do with judging others. Matthew 7:1 says, “Judge not, that you be not judged.”
So Ciarnan, before you tar all Christians with the same brush, realize that Christians, yes, even Christians get it wrong. No Christian is perfect, some still make the mistakes that the Pharisees did, but true Christianity is based on Jesus’ approach. As a Christian, I thought it a bit harsh to put the book that I base my faith on into disrepute for the sake of a few who’ve misinterpreted some of the things Jesus said.
Alex a few flaws there,
I think you might have missed my point. The post is Ironic… its a kind of satire (not very good, but satire nonetheless).
Alex can I begin where you ended (always a good idea??)… Your concluding remarks were “So Ciarnan, before you tar all Christians with the same brush, realize that Christians, yes, even Christians get it wrong”
If you took the time to carefully read my opening remarks you would have read:
‘Now I like Christians, most of them (really I do) but if there was ever a group of people for whom I have such as passionate dislike, it has to be the 'Me and my Bible, Fundamentalist, Evangelical, Christian Right'
I clearly indicated that this article is not about generic Christian’s but rather a specific group, the ‘Me and my Bible, Fundamentalist, Evangelical, Christian Right' to be exact. I think I was pretty unambiguous in this regard and I don’t think it is quite fair to suggest that I ‘tarred all Christian with the same brush’
“Anyone who has spent enough time studying their Bible will tell you that the Levitical Laws found in the Old Testament no longer apply to today’
Quite clearly the group whom I refer to do think they do apply (as do many mainstream Christian groups). Why else would they cite Leviticus 18:22 with regards to homosexuality?
You see, you say you want me to put the article ‘in context’ and that is exactly what I have done; I employed the book from which these people extract their verse and I put it in context : the context of the book. I have every right to do so, and will continue to so whilst Leviticus 18:22 is the verse they employ to spread their vile message of hate.
If you have another read at my preface: “When I read my new testament I read about kindness, forgiveness, tolerance, respect, love and understanding” I think the message I take from the bile is very clear indeed. My article is intended to support the very points you make… that these laws, and as such, this view of homosexuality as ‘an abomination’ is redundant.
You said that:
‘it is a bit harsh to put the book that I base my faith on into disrepute’
Alex, the book is what it is and says what its says…and what I find ‘a bit harsh’ are those laws – Not my attitude to them.
If some Christians are willing to use Leviticus to condemn gays and lesbians in the manner in which they do, then I will do everything I can to highlight just how wrong they are. It’s a responsibility I have as Christian and as a person… my only hope is that more would do the same.
Ciarnan,
I suppose what I’m annoyed isn’t your actual post, but rather the fact that it’s just another article that highlights everything wrong with Christians, rather than any of the good points. It’s always those ‘hypo-Christians’ who don’t quite understand what Jesus was all about who end up being quoted and so people then end up saying that that’s what Christianity is all about. And it’s always the most ‘condemning’ verses in the Bible that are written up on, and that’s what I mean by saying that it puts the Bible into disrepute. So, whether or not that was your aim, which it probably wasn’t, I reckon that that was the result of your post, and so I felt the need to defend it.
“Quite clearly the group whom I refer to do think they do apply (as do many mainstream Christian groups). Why else would they cite Leviticus 18:22 with regards to homosexuality?”
I have never in my life come across someone who has supported this argument by quoting from the Old Testament, but then again, I don’t really do debates that often. If they do, you’re correct, the New Testament quite clearly states that the Old Testament Laws, while many of them still show us the character and nature of God, and are important to read, are no longer binding to Christians:
“Because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.” Romans 8:2 (New International Version)
“Until the time when we were mature enough to respond freely in faith to the living God, we were carefully surrounded and protected by the Mosaic law. The law was like those Greek tutors, with which you are familiar, who escort children to school and protect them from danger or distraction, making sure the children will really get to the place they set out for.” Galatians 3:23 (The Message)
“When Christ died he took that entire rule-dominated way of life down with him and left it in the tomb, leaving you free to "marry" a resurrection life and bear "offspring" of faith for God. For as long as we lived that old way of life, doing whatever we felt we could get away with, sin was calling most of the shots as the old law code hemmed us in. And this made us all the more rebellious. In the end, all we had to show for it was miscarriages and stillbirths. But now that we're no longer shackled to that domineering mate of sin, and out from under all those oppressive regulations and fine print, we're free to live a new life in the freedom of God. “ Romans 7:4a-6 (The Message)
So my post isn’t actually for the sake of arguing with you; we agree on many issues, but rather to point out to the masses (!) reading the blog that actually, that’s not what Christianity is about, and, rather than slating the people who think it is, and cause people to write all Christians off as ‘judgmental’ and ‘self-righteous’, I prefer to try to defend Christianity by highlighting the real meaning of the Bible as far as I can.
Eek! Apologies for the lack of spaces there... Thats one long paragraph and I'm not computer literate enough to try to change it!
Not to worry Alex the message comes accross very well. Good to see you here
Is this alex "baps" hobson?
I have just looked at this thread after being told what was posted here.
None of the comments allegedly made by me were made buy me.
I would appreciate it if they were removed.
Samuel Morrison aka Hanson
“For instance when I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?”
All sacrifices, including the mass, are now redundant as Christ: “But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;” Hebrews 10:12.
In relation to your (imaginary) daughter, the woman who is in her period, the slaves, and the shell fish I refer you to Acts 15V.22- 29: “Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.”
I.e. the ceremonial law is abolished in the New Testament era.
With reference to your neighbour breaking the Sabbath: It is not your duty to enforce Sabbath observance. That is the duty of the state (Romans 13). However, you should set a good example by keeping the Sabbath yourself.
“Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear prescription glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?”
We all suffer from the defect of sin which renders us unfit to approach God’s heavenly throne. However, those who have the experience of the new birth can as a result of Calvary’s perfect sacrifice: Hebrews 4:15-16 “For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.”
Does that not sound more like the real Samuel Morrison?
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